EPS P/E2016 $105 20.4x 2017 $116 18.5x 2018 $122 17.6x
| Questions | Answers |
|---|---|
| While there is no doubt that your expose' will only improve security in the long haul, what are you thoughts/feelings on the immediate impact of your findings? | At the end of the day, I know that people will use this for malicious purposes, just like any important vulnerability that's disclosed. However, I have to balance that out with a question that's been on my mind for a long time: How many people used this before I even thought of it? How many people have been robbed or worse, because of these buggy locks? |
| Did you do any sort of responsible disclosure such as contacting Onity before going public? | Covered at Link to www.reddit.com |
| I'm in the navy, and currently living in the barracks which are secured by these locks. This explains how a friend of mine had some of his stuff taken. Thanks for doing your part to stop this, we kind like our stuff here. | Wait, they're using HT locks or CT locks? They look slightly different, and this stuff won't work on CT. HT is usually only used in hotels, whereas CT is used for commercial buildings, dorm rooms, barracks, etc. I know CT locks are used on some carriers, for instance. |
| What are you working on over at Mozilla? | I work on Boot2Gecko, primarily doing gfx optimizations. Currently working on overscroll animations (what happens when you scroll a page too far). |
| Do you use Boot2Gecko as your primary phone or for any "serious"/actual normal stuff you'd use with your previous Android or iOS phone? | Not yet. I use it as a side phone when I need it, but honestly I break it too often to do so. Sometime soon I'll set a phone aside for stable testing and dogfood it properly. |
| Why is it important to have an animation for it? Why not just have it have a hard stop? | It feels very unnatural to have a hard stop. |
| Why doesn't Firefox/Gecko recognize my website's beautiful CSS3 stylized scrollbars? Sad. | Couldn't tell you, sorry. I work much, much lower level than that; know nothing about the layout side of things. |
| None of our guests knew anything about it, so no having to deal with the fallout. Let me ask you, though, since I have your attention, what your beer of choice is? | Depends on my mood. Overall favorite is Clown Shoes Black IPA, but I'm also a huge fan of Anchor Steam. |
| Clown Shoes? Damn, just looked them up and they don't seem to be available to California. Anchor Steam is a damn fine beer, though. Have you had their Breckel's Brown? So tasty and malty, like a biscuit. | Don't believe I have. I'll check it out :) |
| Dude you're a MA guy? Western MA reporting in, Clown Shoes is AWESOME. Link to beeradvocate.com. | Nope, sorry. NYC for a few more hours, then CT. Fell in love with Clown Shoes after they came to a local craft beer festival. |
| Also, something I was wondering earlier. Why didn't you give them a full heads up before releasing it full disclosure? Isn't it ethical to give them a warning you are going to release a pretty big vulnerability in a companies product? | Tl;dr: I figured that getting the information out there and exposing this as the major issue it is was priority number 1; the safety issues involved make it a really risky proposition, and letting people know how bad things are was the best way. |
| I saw a couple options if I had gone to Onity with these issues ahead of time: 1) They file a lawsuit and keep me tied up in court to keep the info out of the public eye and save face. Result: information doesn't go public (and get fixed) for years. 2) They ignore it, I release everything. Result: same thing we have now. 3) They claim to fix it repeatedly and pressure me to hold off on releasing anything until X% of hotels are fixed. Result: nothing happens, ever; they fix it in an improper way and hotels never update. I eventually release, maybe. 4) They fix it quickly, get the fix out to hotels on their dime, and all is well. Result: Complete safety. | |
| In my opinion, #1 and #3 are most likely. Either way, hotels continue to be unsafe for a very long time. That isn't okay in my book. This forced their hand such that they had to respond and fix the issues, and they're taking steps to do that now. | |
| All of this is combined with the fact that I know I'm not the first person to discover this. It's simply too damn simple; how many people have used this in the past for malicious reasons? The cat has been out of the bag for many years, IMO. | |
| Lets say you have 30 days until the presentation, you get an anonymous email address and send the company a description of the flaws with a note saying you will release the info to the public in 30 days and will not be checking your email until after that time. Maybe screenshot/record the mail being sent for evidence in case they deny it. In this scenario they have 30 days to fix the problem, they have no way to threaten you (or maybe they they could threaten the conference and this idea only works if you leak the info online independently?), and you can expose them as being even bigger pricks if they fail to take timely action to fix the problem. A decent idea, or not workable? | That sort of thing would probably work if you wanted to remain anonymous while giving them a heads up. However, it seems like it'd increase your liability if you were to get into a legal battle after it. |
| Wikipedia tells me you were interested in computing by the age of four. What was it that got you interested at such a young age? | I discovered a book on BASIC for the Apple ][E in my school library, and started tweaking the code in there, then started writing little text-based games; that was probably kindergarten or first grade. It was short (maybe 30-40 pages?) and IIRC its cover was orange with white lettering, if anyone has a clue. Would love to get a copy again. |
| The other thing was that I learned about EDIT.COM and opened the game Pilgrim's Quest in it, on my old 386. I was maybe 6 or 7, and I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, but I mashed keys and typed in words and such; it wasn't source, it was a raw binary. I ran the game, and the screen was completely corrupted, but on pressing a key, you'd hear a sound. Each key had a different sound. It was then that I realized that if you understood what these things did, you could be the master of a little universe of your own. | |
| Of course, playing Shadowrun on the Genesis when I was a little bit older helped a lot. I still want to be a decker; hell, I even named my old OS "Renraku". | |
| How does a 30 year old newbie learn to code? | I'm not really sure. The hard part is just getting started, so maybe something like Link to www.codecademy.com could be of help. |
| I think the book you used was called "BASIC Programming for Kids." If so, that's the exact same book that got me into programming too! Link to www.amazon.com. | Holy shit, I think you're right. Thank you! |
| Now that you've mentioned Apple, what is your opinion of Apple? I hear a lot of opinions here on Reddit regarding Apple, but I would love to hear what someone like yourself thinks of Apple or their direction/machines. | I like some of their products (I couldn't live without my iPad, particularly) but despise their business practices. |
| I want to be a white hat security guy; how do I get started? my background is unix sysadmin/qa, etc. | Learn to program in at least one high-level language (Python, Ruby, JS, whatever), learn to program in at least one low-level language (C is best, C++ is almost as good). If you want to work on the reverse-engineering side of things, learning assembly for at least one ISA (x86 is best) is a very good thing. If you want to work on the web side of things (which you'll likely need, at some point or another) then you have to understand how web development is done, how the web itself works, how JS works, etc. |
| Start from the top down; first step is the web. OWASP has lots of good information, but use it to just get a feeling for what's out there, then Google around. | |
| Run through some web security challenges, e.g. HackThisSite, and use WebGoat as a test. | |
| Read up on native security a bit -- learn the basics of buffer overflows and all that fun stuff. | |
| Grab old versions of open source software with known vulnerabilities, and rediscover them. This applies equally well to native and web software. | |
| Practice, practice, practice. Every time you encounter a piece of technology or a security process, think about how you could attack it. Take a shot at every piece of software you come across (-NOT- web-based services; that's generally illegal). | |
| Surround yourself with people smarter than you are on every topic you're interested in. This is easy to do in the age of the interwebs. | |
| I'm also writing a book on getting into security; the outline is available at Link to gist.github.com . The point of it is not to be a complete guide to every detail of every part of security, but rather to expose you to enough different things that when you need to learn something, you're able to. It'll be out... sometime before I die :P. | |
| Are these generally the same set of instructions necessary for someone of less than honorable morals to learn to get into the criminal side of things? I ask out of curiosity if the difference is entirely intentions, because i'm really interested in psychology. Totally not a criminal and stuff :P. | The only difference between an honorable hacker and a dishonorable hacker is what they do with their knowledge, not the knowledge itself. |
| Do you have an idea when this book will be released? I'm quite interested :) Can you suggest any other book(s) on the subject? | I really have no idea. I'm about a quarter of the way finished, having started it maybe 4-5 months ago, so it's coming along pretty quickly. I'm happy with how it's turning out, though I have no idea how I'm going to publish it; some friends keep telling me to throw up a Kickstarter project to fund it, pay for an editor, etc but I'm on the fence still. |
| Ask you ANYTHING? well why don't we start with how do you do it? | As in how it works? Well, there's a port on the bottom of the lock that's used to program the lock. That port allows direct memory access, enabling you to read the sitecode (unique code for the property) out of memory, then send it back up with the open command. No authentication is required, and it takes about 200ms for it to pop open. Full details are available at Link to daeken.com if you want more details. |
| Or do you mean how I actually got to that point? | |
| Well I was actually jokingly asking you to disclose the secrets of your trade. Answer was totally unexpected and satisfactory :) | First step is to figure out what your goal is. For instance, you may want to understand the model format in a game, so you can render them yourself. |
| Once you have your goal, think about how you would design the system you're trying to reverse-engineer. It doesn't have to be detailed, just a general idea. | |
| From that, come up with a set of assumptions about the system. E.g. "there will be a field in the header that is roughly the size of the file divided by 12 (3 x 4 byte floating point values, for coordinates)". Then check each of those. | |
| Once you've done that, rethink your model of how it works using the new information, and repeat until you figure it out. | |
| It helps massively to know a little about everything, so you can draw conclusions about how things work just by seeing what it does. | Yep. That example is real, btw -- I worked on reversing the Everquest file formats many, many years ago to write my own client for it. I was still in high school at the time; I printed out a couple pages of the hex dump of a few files in a given format, then I'd go over them with highlighters and figure out the specific bits. It's all about pattern matching and checking assumptions. |
| Even though I didnt understand a huge amount of acronyms in that it was still really interesting! thanks! | Anything specifically? I might be able to clear things up. |
| Do you think the lock manufacturer will fix the vulns at least for newly produced locks? Or are there maybe even inherent protocol weaknesses that would make a patched lock incompatible with existing programming devices or cards or so? | Fixing these vulnerabilities consists of two parts: changing the protocol for the portable programmer such that direct memory access is not possible, and changing the crypto to use a safe algorithm and a large key size (a 32-bit key on a terrible proprietary algorithm is very much Not Ok (TM)). |
| This means that the portable programmer and encoder both have to be changed, in addition to the locks. I can only hope they'll do all of this, and get it audited to know that it actually works properly. | |
| So they need to replace 4 million locks and other stuff too. Wouldn't they be worried that a new RE will then come by and expose new vulnerabilities? | They should be concerned about that no matter what. That's why I strongly, strongly recommend them to have everything thoroughly audited by independent security professionals. Will they catch everything? No. Will they catch these sorts of horribly obvious vulnerabilities? Absolutely. |
| Thought the mfr issued a statement that they were fixing "most" of the locks with a physical deterrent and "firmware upgrade"? Am I missing something? Am I in the wrong thread again?? Fuck! | What they've described as their plan to fix these issues is, I believe, not actually going to solve everything. Details are at Link to daeken.com |
| Does Onity actually think that people don't have access to Torx bits? | I'm sure they realize that people have them, but that it'll add quite a few seconds to the opening process, rather than it being instant. It also makes it harder to not be obvious that you're doing it or that you were there. |
| Honestly, it's not a bad solution, it just should be paired with fixing the underlying vulnerabilities. | |
| Caleb from Hackaday.com here. Think they'll just ignore it like bump keys? Seems like so much money and trouble to go back and fix everything. | I think that it's public enough that they'll be forced to do the right thing eventually and release a fix/recall in the future. I just don't know when that'll be. |
| How did you become so smart? College? Self-learning? If so, what did you read or follow? | Everything I know was self-taught. I just found interesting things and started doing them. I'm actually a high school dropout, no college at all haha. |
| Why wasn't your presentation part of the normal blackhat briefings (the last two days)? Did one need more than a standard 'briefings only' badge to see your talk? I was frustrated to be excluded, having paid so much money for entry. | They decided they wanted a "fun" presentation for the Zero Day Briefings that happened the night before everything, and I was picked for it. You didn't need any special badge, but it was woefully under-advertised. Amazed I got as many people as I did, honestly. That said, the presentation sucked -- my timing was totally off, so I ran through my 60 minute slot in... 30. |
| How many people actually came to your presentation? I assume only those from the trainings sessions ($5,000+ entry) were able to see your talk? | For what it's worth, I'm planning on doing another one of it which will be livestreamed with a public Q&A. Not sure when, but I'll announce it on Twitter (@daeken) and my blog (Link to daeken.com) ahead of time. |
| Thoughts on Ada vs. C? | Never wrote much Ada at all, so I don't have much of an opinion on it. C is my mother tongue (along with x86 asm) effectively, so I'm naturally biased towards it. |
| How much did you enjoy Stuxnet? | Never looked into Stuxnet at all; malware doesn't interest me in the least. |
| Is reversing as boring as I imagine it? | Reversing for me is amazingly interesting. Don't get me wrong, it definitely gets old sometimes. But it's a combination of the ultimate application of the scientific method (ok, this is how it would work if I designed it... what assumptions can I make from there, and how can I check them? Rinse, repeat) and putting together mental jigsaw puzzles while only having hints of what the image should be. I love it. |
| How does it feel to work in a field society absolutely doesn't give a shit about? Are there actually organizations out there that care about IT security in a way that deserves the word? Law firms? Drug cartels? The Vatican? | I'm in it for the challenge, above all else. While most people have no idea what I do and those that do frequently dislike it, it's immensely challenging and fun for me. The money helps too, of course. |
| Can you tell me any secret IRC rooms where reversers hang out to be away from the noobs? PM me if necessary. | I don't really know of any. I hang out in a lot of IRC channels, though, where this sort of thing is discussed in passing frequently, but they're mostly social. PM me on Freenode (nick is Daeken) if you want to join any of them. Also, #lockresearch (Freenode) is a channel I started to continue the Onity work, if you're interested. |
| Do you know of any secure hard-drives where the ATA security feature cannot be circumvented by firmware update or overwriting certain disk sectors? If not, are there other ways to reach this goal like cutting write-enable pins to flash chips? | Never looked into ATA security stuff, sorry. |
| What do you think about the "oh, we'll send out some screws to stick into the reprogramming hole" response from the vendor? Would you stay in a hotel room with that patch applied? | I think it's actually a really nice temporary fix, and I think it's good to have it there even once these issues are fixed -- after all, there are likely others there. It's not perfect, but it raises the bar slightly, and that's a good thing. The rest of the response... not so much. |
| Honestly, the likelihood of anything happening to you (even if you left the door latch off and had a vulnerable lock) is tiny. I always throw the door latch/chain on when it's available, but I don't stress about it. If someone wants to rob me or whatnot, they'll do it. | |
| Did you get any blow backs from this? Like did any hotels or security companies (the lock companies) get pissed at you? | I'm sure a lot of people are pissed at me, but outside of some rude comments on the internet (gasp) I haven't heard a thing. |
| Favorite sandwich? | Reuben with thousand island dressing. Pretty much all I ate for a week after moving to NYC. |
| Damn, I replied before that we had very similar introductions into computers and now this. Are you the black hat version of me, though we both love Reubens, our universal weakness? Lots of sauerkraut, no lean meat, go hard or go home? | Wouldn't the blackhhat version of you eat pastrami sandwiches instead? Then again, I do love pastrami... |
| You're in NYC now? I just moved away after several amazing years. Enjoy! Try the burgers at Paul's on 8th. Good work on getting a repeatable hack on these locks published. Now I can finally use the pool at the Hilton! | I've been in NYC for a little under two years, but I'm actually moving to CT tomorrow haha. |
| Living in NYC, moving to CT, computer knowledge... Are you Foamy? | Nope, sorry. |
| How does one get started in reverse engineering? | Learn C. |
| Learn x86 assembly (start by compiling C you write down to assembly and reading it, then get your friends to write some stuff and compile it for you, then decompile it back to C by hand) | |
| Start digging into every protocol and file format you can find. Pick a goal (e.g. I want to write a model viewer for WoW) and jump into it. | |
| Practice, practice, practice. | |
| If you want to go down that path, shoot me a PM on Freenode IRC; nick's Daeken. | |
| I see from other comments as well that you are an advocate of C. What are your thoughts on C vs C++? | C++ has its place, much as I hate to say it. I've recently begun relearning C++ properly, along with Boost, so that I can make use of Cinder. I don't completely hate it. |
| One of the reports mentions your code/device failing to open some locks in a few cases. Was that just a matter of your stuff being mostly proof of concept code that needed refinement, or were the locks any different from what you had been working on previously? | I know that the locks were different (in that they used slightly different boards), but the key problem was a timing issue with my Arduino sketch. The night before the Forbes demo, I hacked the sketch up to add some extra functionality (reading out the code key values needed to make master cards, in addition to just opening the door) and I'm fairly confident that screwed up the timing, which I calibrated carefully a long while back. |
| Outside of some random documentation issues and a little bug in the code, I'm fairly certain that the code that I released in my paper (largely the original code) works 100% of the time. That's definitely been what I've heard from people who have tested it. Not sure how I feel about that. | |
| How I'd solve this: Port it to a much faster uC, run your communications code in a fast high priority interrupt handler, will be rock solid. I think a PIC32MX7 would probably do it. | Yep, a number of people have built independent implementations on random uCs and had full success. |
| Have you ever used your skills for something mischievous? or for a personal gain? | Mischievous, not really. For personal gain, nothing directly outside of just using my skills for work; my projects like these have ended up boosting my reputation and making it easier to get work, so that counts I guess. |
| Did you see the industry having to do a complete overhaul of their procedures? Or was that the point? | That was the point, by and large. The Onity vulnerabilities are terrible and obvious, and obviously need to be fixed, but I think the bigger picture is: there are plenty of other lock vendors, and I'm sure they aren't that much better. Security -- real, hard security -- needs to be the norm here, and that won't happen without getting some knocks. |
| Did you ever fear repercussions by Onity? I mean you're hurting their business and public image quite a bit. | Fear? Not so much; I feel I've done the right thing and stayed within the bounds of the law. I'm surprised there hasn't been an attempt to 'shut me up', though. |
| Are you working on your next big hack? If so, can you give us a taste? | You know, at this point I have no idea. I'm amassing hardware hacking equipment at the moment (well, putting in orders; moving tomorrow, so I had to wait), so something will be coming eventually. Mainly focusing on work, demoscene stuff, and some independent consulting at the moment. |
| It's very likely this won't be the last of the lock stuff I do. I've got some things on my mind, but I have no idea what will come of any of it. | |
| Do you have more information on reversing the Emotive brain-computer interface that can be publicly released? | I wrote about my reversing process at Link to daeken.com It's currently maintained as part of Link to www.openyou.org |
| If you have any questions about it beyond this stuff, feel free to ask. That was a fun project. | |
| Cheers, Cody. (Awesome name for a hacker, btw) Definitely something I'd like to get involved in when my programming skills are less shit. The brain hacking thing's sure to be a big thing in the future - especially now there's a cheap consumer virtual reality headset on the way. | Well, if you're interested go ahead and jump on ##reversing on irc.freenode.net -- just started it to help people get up to speed. |
| Is there anything else that you like to do with your spare times besides reverse engineering things? | In terms of tech, I spend a lot of time working on demoscene productions and writing random little apps/tools. Otherwise, just doing things with the girlfriend; seeing movies, going to plays, bowling, shopping, etc. I'm pretty boring, generally. |
| Occasional acid flashback? | We don't talk about that these days. Not after the incident. |
| I heard that when they tested your hotel door unlock scheme on several randomly chosen hotel locks, it only worked on a small percentage. | Covered that at Link to www.reddit.com |
| So, I see a lot of questions about security and whatnot, but I have something totally different to ask you. What do you do for fun? Things both in and out of the realm of CS. | First part is covered at Link to www.reddit.com |
| Do you ever do random challenges for the heck of it (like writing a Befunge interpreter in Befunge, for example)? Or do you strictly do stuff like that for work? | I do a lot of random challenges in programming/reversing/security. Bug bounties (see Link to www.ccbill.com ) are a lot of fun, and I used to do a lot of esoteric language work ( Link to esolangs.org ). Also, a lot of Project Euler; it's slow going, though, since I don't allow myself to Google anything, ask questions, etc. |
| That's pretty awesome. I don't think I'm good enough at programming for any serious bug bounties, but I totally respect people who are. I used to do a ton of work in esoteric languages (mostly Befunge '98 and Piet) but the esolang community seems to be all but dead lately. | Hey, nobody starts out awesome. It takes a lot of work to get to the point where you can totally dominate bounty programs; start small and work up. Simple sites like CCBill (whose bug bounty program is unfortunately terminated. May or may not have been my fault...) are a great place to start. |
| Can you break the lock on my Chasity belt I lost the key?!? | Given the 'Lord' in your name, I believe I will pass ;) |
| How many hotel owners do you think even care or will bother to change this? For the majority of the people staying, no one would even realize that this is a flaw in the particular hotel they're staying at. So how/why would owners actually go ahead and do this fix, especially since its going to be out of their own pockets? How do you convince them to change it? | Lots will care, simply because of the black eye the industry as a whole is getting in the press right now. However, I think many won't do anything about it, simply because they do have to pay for it themselves. That's why I believe that the responsible response from Onity would be a proper recall, at their expense. It's the only way that hotels are going to fix this. |
| Is it true that you find this easy but riding a bike very difficult? | Quite so. |
| What ever happened to that chair you hate? | Hah. I have no idea. Do you still have the sound bite of "Fuck! I hate this chair" ? |
| Purely hypothetical of course, but would it have been possible to make a little more money...doing this the other way? Are those routes possible? Are there people who are interested? | Where there's money involved, there's always a moral and immoral path; someone will always be willing to throw you some money. |
| Have you figure out, how to unlock the heart of a woman? | I believe so, yes. |
| I may be very naïve with this question and stuff but I really want to get into hacking/security. However, I really want to learn a programming language too. With what programming language would you suggest that I start with? I was thinkig between Python and C. Thanks in advance! | I absolutely recommend both Python and C. They're the two languages I use most commonly. From there, go for x86 assembly. |
| Oh man so much thanks for answering! I honestly didn't expect you to answer my little question in this thread of a 1000+ replies, thanks a lot man! | I'm making an attempt to answer every reasonable question haha. |
| You said a while back here that you were working on a book about software emulation. Is this still in the works? | It is. Sort of. I wrote half the book, scrapped it, wrote half the book, scrapped it again. I can't come up with anything that 1) teaches the things I want to teach, 2) isn't a million pages, and 3) actually makes sense to anyone but myself. If it's ever going to work, it's going to be in the form of a bunch of separate ebooks on specific issues, I think. |
| Why didn't you tell the lock manufacturer and hotel chains instead of blasting it to the entire world so everyone can break into any hotel room? | Covered this all over the thread, but here: Link to www.reddit.com |
| Like a bikechain that can be broken through with lockcutters? | I don't think security through obscurity works anywhere, but just like on the interwebs, anything that raises the barrier to entry makes things safer, even if not more secure. |
| Can you comment on my thoughts above? | As for how long it takes to open a lock with the vulnerabilities described in the paper, you're several orders of magnitude off; you plug a device into the lock (which can be done in under a second), it opens in 200 milliseconds or less, and you're in. |
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